CF 1.47 + Infill G4 + GigaPort AG = Problems :(

[UberSteve]

Hi All,

I'm having a few issues running Centrafuse (1.47) on my Infill G4 with a GigaPort AG USB Sound Card. The G4 has been completely formatted and a fresh copy of XP installed, and then Centrafuse.

These are the issues i'm having, in order of severity:

1) No sound upon resuming from standby: There appears to be an issue with Centrafuse when it tries to "reconnect" to the sound card upon resuming from standby. I have read elsewhere in these forums of others having similar issues. If I restart CF, sound returns. If I enter standby while playing a song in say Windows Media Player, upon resuming, I can immediately begin playing again. This to me points to a possible bug in CF's resume code. I'm guessing it is trying to use the sound card before the device is ready. Is it possible to add a delay (configurable) or a retry look to the resume code?

2) Rear audio?: Is it possible to setup Centrafuse to output audio to more than the front channels for a stereo source? Since the Gigaport AG supports upto 8 channels, I would like to use the rear channels for my rear speakers. I believe since Centrafuse uses the BASS sound library (which I have a little experience with), this shouldn't be very hard to implement using the bassmix plugin. I looked into writing a CF plugin to achieve this, but the CF SDK doesn't expose the necessary API.

3) The tilt and brightness controls don't work on the Infill plug-in settings form. The radio does however work fine. Does the Infill plug-in have any reliance on the original Infill Station software? What Infill DLL's does it need, versions, and where do they need to be installed?

Apart from the above issues, I think CF is a fantastic product!

Any help is greatly appreciated!

Cheers,
Steve

[David]

I can look into the multiple channel output, many of the device drivers have an option for this, for example in realtek it's called Smart 5.1, this will take the stereo signal and send it to all channels...

are you running the latest CFInfill from http://www.fluxmedia.net/downloads/CFInfill.exe

Try the latest and see if it works better, it will also be auto included into the next release...

not sure about your audio resume issues, we have mutiple Infill systems here and we cannot reproduce this... I am looking into possible causes...

david

[UberSteve]

Hi David,

Thanks for your quick response!

Unfortunately the GigaPort AG doesn't have a "Smart 5.1" mode, so that isn't an option for me. I did look into AC3Filter, but since CF uses BASS and not DirectShow directly, that was no help either.

As a first pass, maybe just setup a page that allows the user to directly modify the output matrix, then at a later stage you could setup matrix presets for different modes (4, 4.1, 5.1, etc)? Anyway, just another thing to add to your long list of feature requests. ;-) While i'm on feature requests, ASIO support would be awesome also! The BASS ASIO lib seems to be working pretty good these days, I don't believe it will be long before it's out of Beta.

I believe i'm using the latest Infill plugin, but i'll download/install again just to be sure. Are you able to confirm that the plugin has no dependency on Infill Station? (ie. you don't have to have Infill Station installed for the plugin to work, everything is included in the plugin)

As a developer myself, I fully understand how difficult it is tracking down a bug you can't reproduce! I've done a little more testing using a USB hub and have found the following: If you connect the GigaPort to an externally powered USB hub and have it powered all the time while entering/leaving standby, audio works everytime! If you have the GigaPort connected directly to the G4, no audio. So this tells me it's some sort of timing issue. By the time the USB port gets power, the GigaPort powers on and the driver initialises, it's too late by the time CF trys to use the device. I also have the built in sound device still enabled on the G4 (for the radio), so maybe CF is switching to that device when it can't access the GigaPort on resume?

So you're probably thinking, why not just use a hub then? Well, for the hub solution to work, the hub has to be powered before the G4 starts, and must remain powered until the G4 goes into standby, therefore simply connecting the hub (via a power supply) to the car's ACC circuit will not work. I would prefer not to have to delve into the realm of delay circuits, timers, etc... I would prefer to sovle the issue in software.

To help solve the issue, i'll write a small app that uses the BASS library, and see what it takes to make it continue to work with the GigaPort upon resuming from standby. I'm thinking it'll just be a matter of adding a delay before accessing/resuming playback on the device.

S.

[David]

in 1.47 I did add an option in System\config.xml for RESETAUDIO, this will reset all the audio upon reset, see if this works for you...

david

[vigilante_xix]

@UberSteve,

How is the development of the plugin you mentioned going?

Or did David's suggestion of RESETAUDIO in the System\config.xml work for when your machine comes out of standby?

I have an Infill G4, which as you know already, has no pre-out. Therefore, I am using a pre-amp converter to down the signal before entering the amp to then be re-amplified. Absolutly hate this setup as I'm certain it's degrading the sound quality as well as quite fidley to setup volume on pre-amp converter.

I would quite like to use a usb sound card, similar to what your using so I'm interested in where you've got with the issues you were experiencing. In fact, from the looking about on the web I've done, I reckon your GigaPort is the best one currently available, although a little on the pricey side. I have found this one which also sports RCA outputs but I don't think is USB 2.0 so maybe not as efficient.

Any updates/advice etc would be great.

[UberSteve]

Originally Posted by vigilante_xix

@UberSteve,

How is the development of the plugin you mentioned going?

I'm not actually developing a plugin, since CF doesn't expose the API's needed to "replace" the audio playback subsystem.

What I have done is written a small "proof of concept" app. (based on the BASS.NET v2.4 library (including BassAsio and BassMix)) that tests the following:
- ASIO playback
- Resumes playback from standby (particularly when using the GigaPortAG)
- Upmixes a stereo source to Quadraphonic with Pan and Fade controls

The code is still very messy at this point, but when I get the time, I would like to tidy it up and send it to David in the hope he'll consider integrating it into a future release of CF.

Originally Posted by vigilante_xix

Or did David's suggestion of RESETAUDIO in the System\config.xml work for when your machine comes out of standby?

I've had partial success enabling the RESETAUDIO option. It helped, but I still find approx. 1/2 the time coming out of StandBy, I don't get audio. Restarting CF brings back audio.

Currently, as a work around, I have configured my G4 to Hibernate rather than StandBy. I have found that I always get audio when the G4 resumes from Hibernation.

Originally Posted by vigilante_xix

I have an Infill G4, which as you know already, has no pre-out. Therefore, I am using a pre-amp converter to down the signal before entering the amp to then be re-amplified. Absolutly hate this setup as I'm certain it's degrading the sound quality as well as quite fidley to setup volume on pre-amp converter.

I would quite like to use a usb sound card, similar to what your using so I'm interested in where you've got with the issues you were experiencing. In fact, from the looking about on the web I've done, I reckon your GigaPort is the best one currently available, although a little on the pricey side. I have found this one which also sports RCA outputs but I don't think is USB 2.0 so maybe not as efficient.

Any updates/advice etc would be great.

I definitely think using an external USB sound card produces the best SQ. My biggest problem at the moment is getting quadraphonic sound (ie sound from my rear speakers). My hope is that in the near future CF will have support for upmixing, rather than relying on the sound card driver to support "Virtual 5.1" modes, etc.

Hmm, that TerraTec card looks surprising similar to the GigaPortAG...

[vigilante_xix]

Hi UberSteve, thanks for your response. I think I've definitely decided on a USB sound card and most likely the Gigaport AG.

I've ruled out the TerraTec Aureon 5.1 USB Sound card as it's only 16-bit. There is also a lot of conflicting pics/info on this product as to whether it has 6 or 8 outputs and if they are 3.5mm or RCA outputs respectively. This one vs This one! Both with the same Manufacturer Part # but clearly different!

The only other nearly suitable 24bit USB sound card I can find is from Creative which only has 6 outputs and their 3.5mm at that. I know you can get cables to convert from RCA to 3.5mm but I'd rather keep it all RCA if I can, to keep sound quality - Plus I need 8 channels anyway.

So, on to the Gigaport questions...
I have an Audi TT with the BOSE Surround Sound system upgrade which includes an 8-channel amplifier, hence my interest in an 8-channel sound card. There are in fact 9 speakers that I can see which are listed below...
1 - Front Left Mid
2 - Front Left Treble
3 - Front Centre ??
4 - Front Right Treble
5 - Front Right Mid
6 - Rear Right Treble
7 - Rear Right Mid
8 - Rear Left Mid
9 - Rear Left Treble

Not sure how the Centre speaker is wired up... perhaps fed from both left and right mid/treble?? Anyway, I cannot see the bass speakers and I'm pretty sure there isn't any, which brings me on to my next question...

Can you have multiple sound cards and setup the frequency accordingly? So I would feed the Audi BOSE 8-channel amp with the 8-channel Gigaport and then get another USB sound card to feed a separate amp for a bass box?

For this to work efficiently, would you only want mid and treble frequency being fed through the Gigaport and then all bass frequency fed through the other sound card? Is this even possible? What software comes with the Gigaport, if any?

The reason I ask this question is because on other 5.1 surround systems (e.g. Creative's), the .1 output is often shared with the Centre speaker as they are both mono. The difference being the frequency being output on each one - mid&treble for centre and low for the bass. I also remember something along these lines when looking at my previous stereo, 7 or 8 years back, feeding amps and different speaker types with different frequencies to get the best out of the system.


I'm highly likely to go ahead with the Gigaport so I'd be interested in your plugin and would be happy to help out testing, even if it is in early development stages.


Also, when the stereo hibernates, is there a loud bang/hiss/clank type noise from the speakers? This has been reported by others with USB sound cards.

And, can you control all 8 channels using the Windows Mixer?

[UberSteve]

Originally Posted by vigilante_xix

Hi UberSteve, thanks for your response. I think I've definitely decided on a USB sound card and most likely the Gigaport AG.

I've ruled out the TerraTec Aureon 5.1 USB Sound card as it's only 16-bit. There is also a lot of conflicting pics/info on this product as to whether it has 6 or 8 outputs and if they are 3.5mm or RCA outputs respectively. This one vs This one! Both with the same Manufacturer Part # but clearly different!

The only other nearly suitable 24bit USB sound card I can find is from Creative which only has 6 outputs and their 3.5mm at that. I know you can get cables to convert from RCA to 3.5mm but I'd rather keep it all RCA if I can, to keep sound quality - Plus I need 8 channels anyway.

If you require a 24-bit card, the GigaportAG wont be suitable since it is a 16-bit card.

Originally Posted by vigilante_xix

So, on to the Gigaport questions...
I have an Audi TT with the BOSE Surround Sound system upgrade which includes an 8-channel amplifier, hence my interest in an 8-channel sound card. There are in fact 9 speakers that I can see which are listed below...
1 - Front Left Mid
2 - Front Left Treble
3 - Front Centre ??
4 - Front Right Treble
5 - Front Right Mid
6 - Rear Right Treble
7 - Rear Right Mid
8 - Rear Left Mid
9 - Rear Left Treble

Not sure how the Centre speaker is wired up... perhaps fed from both left and right mid/treble?? Anyway, I cannot see the bass speakers and I'm pretty sure there isn't any, which brings me on to my next question...

Can you have multiple sound cards and setup the frequency accordingly? So I would feed the Audi BOSE 8-channel amp with the 8-channel Gigaport and then get another USB sound card to feed a separate amp for a bass box?

For this to work efficiently, would you only want mid and treble frequency being fed through the Gigaport and then all bass frequency fed through the other sound card? Is this even possible? What software comes with the Gigaport, if any?

The GigaPortAG is supported by the standard USB Audio driver included with Windows. This gives you a 7.1 card, and providing you have a 7.1 audio source, you will get sound from all channels.

This driver is very basic and doesn't support upmixing.

I beleive the answer to all these problems is if CF support ASIO with a configurable matrix mixer. The GigaPortAG support ASIO by installing the ASIO driver (from the ESI website).

Originally Posted by vigilante_xix

The reason I ask this question is because on other 5.1 surround systems (e.g. Creative's), the .1 output is often shared with the Centre speaker as they are both mono. The difference being the frequency being output on each one - mid&treble for centre and low for the bass. I also remember something along these lines when looking at my previous stereo, 7 or 8 years back, feeding amps and different speaker types with different frequencies to get the best out of the system.


I'm highly likely to go ahead with the Gigaport so I'd be interested in your plugin and would be happy to help out testing, even if it is in early development stages.

You may have misread my above post, but I am NOT developing a CF plugin. The CF SDK does not expose the API needed to replace/modify the audio subsystem.

The code I wrote was to purly prove the concept using the same audio library that CF uses.

Originally Posted by vigilante_xix

Also, when the stereo hibernates, is there a loud bang/hiss/clank type noise from the speakers? This has been reported by others with USB sound cards.

I don't get any pops because my amp. is controlled by the G4's Remote Amp. wire. This ensures the amps turn on after the soundcard turns on, and turns the amps off before the soundcard turns off.

Without the remote amp. wire, I believe you would get pops, etc.

Originally Posted by vigilante_xix

And, can you control all 8 channels using the Windows Mixer?

When using ASIO, the Windows Mixer is completely by-passed.

From my limited understanding of the BASS sound library (see: www.un4seen.com), everything you have asked above (multiple sound cards, software xovers, etc) is possible, it's just a matter of it being implemented in CF.

[jdmagoo]

Sorry for the newb question, but how have you wired up your amp with the two soundcard sources? I.E. 1st for the media and 2nd for the radio.

Obviously you have the output from the back of the G4 going into the amp and the output of the USB Soundcard going into the amp as well. Does your amp except two inputs at the same time? Also when switching between media to radio (or vice versa) does this cause any issues with pops or crackles or other noises etc.

Thanks for your replys

James

[UberSteve]

Originally Posted by jdmagoo

Sorry for the newb question, but how have you wired up your amp with the two soundcard sources? I.E. 1st for the media and 2nd for the radio.

Obviously you have the output from the back of the G4 going into the amp and the output of the USB Soundcard going into the amp as well. Does your amp except two inputs at the same time? Also when switching between media to radio (or vice versa) does this cause any issues with pops or crackles or other noises etc.

Thanks for your replys

James

The GigaPortAG is the only input going into my amp. The radio inside the G4, I beleive, is connected to the LineIn on the G4's internal soundcard. Since CF is already buffering the radio, it can easily route the audio back out another soundcard (ie the GigaPort).

HTH

S.